chris hani quotes
we’re recording now chris harney an editorial in this awaitan just yesterday described you as fascinating controversial and to some frightening are you really a frightening person no i i don’t think i am a frightening person but i’ve read a number of assessments from different newspapers some of them quite hostile to the cause for which i stand i would regard myself as an uncompromising fighter for justice freedom and non-racialism i don’t want to compromise on the bottom lines of that struggle i see therefore the bottom lines as a democratic election based on one person one vote in a united non-racial and non-sexist country another bottom line which is resented by those who own the wealth of this country is the fact that i say there should be social economic restructuring in our country we can allow a situation where the wealth of the country is concentrated in a few hands and a few white hands for that matter and therefore i argue that you know freedom is meaningless if we don’t bring about you know an end to the cross and vulgar disparities between the blacks and the whites in this country in the economic field but the reason why some people uh mainly white south africans are frightened of you is because only a few years ago you were a leader of uncontour was his way uh a leader of movement dedicated to armed struggle and they’re worried that perhaps sometime soon the sacp might lead him konto back to arm’s struggle are you still a revolutionary yes i i am still a revolutionary i believe in you know the restructuring of our society i don’t believe in the freedom of just the national anthem and the flag i believe that freedom can only be meaningful if it begins to tackle the problems of the millions of our people who are poor who are unemployed living in informal settlements squatters checks and ideologically i do agree that i frighten those won’t like this situation to come about i believe in a class struggle and i believe that the workers in this country should stand up assert themselves and bring about equitable redistribution of the resources of our country but answering your question i was in the high command of from condorces where at one time i was a political commissa then chief of staff and i participated in the military operations but the sacp is in agreement with african national congress in the suspension of military you know operations in order to facilitate negotiations we feel given the objective and subjective conditions in our country and the world there is a good prospect for successful negotiations in order to resolve peacefully the south african conflict and therefore at the moment we’re not talking about i’m struggling we’re talking about other forms of struggle including mass struggle which the government and these supporters find frightening because in so far as the government is concerned the people should fold their hands and allow the clever negotiators to work out the future for this country we say no negotiation should involve the people because negotiations are are about the future of the people the future of the workers the ordinary people on the ground if democracy is going to be vibrant in this country then you need vigorous participation of the people who have fought and sacrificed over the years for freedom and democracy this government is negotiating with us because the people of south africa the ordinary people the workers made the necessary sacrifices to bring about an end to white domination if these ordinary people went to prison some of them were killed and maimed would led to a situation where the nationalist party government could no longer continue in the old way so why leave them out when you are negotiating negotiations should not just discuss the constitution they must discuss the poverty the hunger the joblessness the retrenchment and the dismissals i listened to similar cyril ramaphosa on the radio yesterday interviewing the talking and he was asked directly about the alliance between the anc and the sacp how long would it last and he said a silver ramaphosa said at the moment we have a shared goal which is ending apartheid when apartheid is entered both organizations will have to review the situation now let me make sure i’ve understood this right is the message that the sacp will fight the elections for a constituent assembly in alliance as part of an anc slate but the election after next the sacp will be a separate political organization correct the historical reasons for the alliance was a struggle against white domination and apartheid to bring about a democratic south africa we have not achieved that objective so there’s no reason why we should not continue the alliance in fact there’s a need to strengthen that alliance in order to defeat the nationalist by the government and bring about democracy in this country cyril is correct when he says we’ve got a shared objective a shared goal the goal of democracy and freedom and therefore it would be unwise to tactfully incorrect and not in the best interest of the oppressed people in this country if the anc and the party were to part ways presently we need to go into the elections together on an anc slate led by the anc with the anc taking into consideration the role and the input of the party and concerto and other patriotic forces in this country such as late should include communists should include trade unions civic leaders and members of other patriotic groups in this country but [Music] am i writing saying the sacp has close to half the seats on the anc nec is that roughly right no no strangely last night i began to count something i’d never done before and on the national executive committee of the anc of over 70 members there are only 15 members of the south african communist party therefore it is incorrect that we constitute 50 percent actually constitute probably less than thirty percent of the entire national executive committee of the anc and in addition we are not given any special dispensation in terms of membership were elected popularly elected at a conference of the african national congress and some of us actually received the highest votes in that election which was an election to a leadership of the african national congress by members of the african national congress the elections after next could we see chris harney versus nelson mandela no no no no as cyril correctly says the position will be reviewed we as a communist party believe in scientific analysis who are guided by the theory of marxism so when we revisit we shall have to look into the situation what are the objective conditions how strong is the democratic government because you see after we’ve defeated apartheid with an anc dominated government in place we’ve got to look at the problems that the country will be facing and what are those problems basically they will be done with the problems of strengthening democracy problems of ensuring that we bring about social economic changes if you like some nationalization of some public utilities and even some big companies and i want to hesitate to say in our view that nationalization is not going to be guided by ideological concerns we’ll have to ask ourselves if we nationalize a particular industry are you going to be running it better more effectively than is private owners are you going to bring about the empowerment of the workers i want to ensure that the nationalization is not just statist and not take into consideration the involvement of the workers at decision level at strategizing level and if we after after sitting down and analyzing the situation if you agree together with the anc the trade unions and civics that we need this alliance to strengthen that those particular positions then we are likely to continue with that position and i believe given the problems of this country problems where you have an ultra right wing which is challenging our democratic goals where you have many people in this country what’s going to subvert democracy where you have got security forces with a tradition of fighting against democracy it would be fully on our part to begin to to contest you know the position of people like mandela who in their political lives and their political participation have embraced partly even some of the objectives of our party so you’re talking about an indefinite political and electoral alliance or at least understanding with the amc i would think that this country would need a strong government a government that should be supported by by progressive forces that is not to say that there will be no differences but i believe those differences are not going to be antagonistic and we shall all be you know concerned about the economic growth of this country about a robust democracy as well as about building organs of democratic organs of civil society to ensure that we prevent drifting to a situation which we have seen in other countries of a revolution moving towards sometimes one party dictatorship moving towards nepotism corruption and other evils and i wouldn’t say the alliance would you know be indefinite i can’t project you know and sort of predict that you know at a particular point there will be separation there might one vape separation depending on the objective situation the i mean the situation is always fluid and dynamic but i don’t think it would be correct to predict that we’ll party at a particular point correctly we shall have to review and see if there’s still a valid basis for their lives is your party still a loneliness party well it depends what we mean by leninism so much has happened in the communist world we believe [Music] in fact that we are a marxist learning this party in so far as we subscribe to those to those issues to those aspects which have been proved historically correct and we all know that lots of things have been proved historically wrong and therefore it would be you know subjective and scientific to cling to old positions and not to take into consideration the sort of uh turmoil we have seen in this so in the former soviet union in eastern europe and the gross violations there the distortions the violations of democracy the commandist economy so we want to say that we are guided by the general principles but we are going to be building socialism in south africa we must reject what we religiously adhered to in the past mortals like the one in the soviet union like the one we said you know there must be only one party you know ruling a country there must be no pluralism decent must be treated in a harsh manner so that number of things we should you know take into consideration so yes marxist learning is i want to repeat in terms of looking at those things which are positive which have been proved correct to be correct but you know disregarding and dumping and discarding everything negative everything dehumanizing which would have actually seemed to have been a dominant feature of soviet society of gdl society etc you talk about what was the party’s you used the term religious adherence i mean for you personally when socialism collapsed in the soviet union i mean how much of a disappointment was that to you well it was dramatic we grew up in a situation where we looked up to the soviet union serving solve most problems of building socialism i felt deceived as a person because i had been to the soviet union several times we were not shown the ugly side we were taken around showing the positive side we are not even in a position to to interact with the ordinary members of soviet society and incorrectly therefore we went out of our way to justify everything that the soviet union did when they went into hungary when they went into czechoslovakia we thought it was our communist duty to defend and justify these positions because we were brought up in that tradition now all of a sudden when we saw that there was a lot wrong and this wrong this wrong was actually brought up by people like gorbachev secretary general of the party who began to expose in a frightening manner the shortcomings the distortions the violations of democracy the economic problems mind you at all that you know the soviet union was solving each and every economic problem that it was going to overtake and surpass you know the most developed capitalist country in the united states so for us this was a blow this was shattering when there was this collapse and were to sit down and review the situation was it correct for us to continue along the path of advocating socialism for our country and we said yes because we said in the basics of marxism as propounded by marx angles and other eminent theoreticians there was nothing wrong what floored marxism was the way it was implemented by parties and leaders in the soviet in the former soviet union and eastern europe and we said for us those lessons were important we had to confess all the wrongs we ourselves have done what we embrace wrongly as a correct position and we came back to our country and we said we are ruled by a racist capitalist government which has done which has brought such hard work against workers and for us therefore capitalism was not the way out we saw capitalism as anti-working class because even in the most developed countries the problems of poverty and unemployment have not been solved the problems of illiteracy the problems of houselessness for quite a big number of people all these problems have not been solved and we said for us socialism is still a path but that socialism has got to be more democratic than any other capitalist model this is the view of our party did your party consider changing its name no this was raised by some comrades prior to the congress we had last year and we saw we said no we can’t change the name it is not the name which is tainted and soiled what is changing assault are people we use socialism to bring about something which was not socialistic as far as i’m concerned of course with the wisdom of hindsight at the time of the anti-gorbachev coup just over a year ago some members of your party haliguala for one came out quite strongly in support of the coup what was your personal position at that time my personal position at the time of the coup was that once more the coup represented an ideological operation as marxists were opposed to cause of palace revolutions because calls are an action of individuals they don’t involve the masses they don’t involve the working class is few individuals elitist if you like sitting and plotting in a corner and deciding what is right for the majority of the people on the ground and therefore from that position from that theoretical and ideological position i repudiated the court together with the majority of the members of the central committee of our party but you know there are many views in our party and then we accept that there should be many views in our party we have become more open we debate more openly so it would be strange if there are no people who felt given the deterioration in soviet society the rapid drift towards if you like capitalism some of our companies felt that anything that that tried to stop gorbachev and yeltsin was correct but as a party we are opposed to that approach we thought again it represents the failure of the communist part of the soviet union to bring about active political life in the in the soviet union amongst communists i would have been happy if thousands if not millions of ordinary communists had come out and said gorbachev we don’t accept your line we’re dismissing you as the secretary general we are demanding a new congress of the party where we must discuss the way forward since the collapse of the soviet union has your party managed to improve relations with the chinese communist party well we are still guided by the principles of international solidarity friendly and completed relations with other communist parties we believe passionately in the independence of each communist party big and small we suffered in the past because of accepting the idea of big brother a big communist party prescribing to other communist party that suffocated democracy within the communist movement our relations with the chinese is based on the fact that all of us are committed to the building of socialism who are fighting for the interests of the working class and we feel that all parties should look at what the chinese are doing again not to you know to to pick up on copies of what they are doing but a country like china which has got some revolutionary traditions cannot be ignored by us so we have good relation with the chinese communist party are those relations improving they are improving every day given the the fact that our relations are bad in the past at the time of the sharp ideological conflicts between this communist part of the soviet union and the chinese communist party we took the site of the soviet union and that led to the suffering of relations between the south african communist party and the communist party of china we have all agreed now that that belongs to the past as part of our history well now we have we have actually gone into a situation where we are improving our relations very very rapidly if i could turn perhaps to your personal history you joined the communist party when it was illegal in i think 61 or 62 or something like that it’s difficult for for many of my listeners to understand what it was like joining an illegal party how were you approached how were you recruited how did you join a party which as far as the authorities are concerned wasn’t allowed to exist when i joined the communist party i was a student at the university of water in the eastern cape previously four years before i joined the african national congress youth league because i was still young i must have been 15 when i joined the african national congress youth league it was illegal then by 1960 even the anc was banned now it is important to give a brief background i was born in the trans guy probably one of the most impoverished areas in this country son of a peasant worker if you like a migrant worker with an illiterate mother most of the time we stayed with our mother because our father was either in the minds or when he changed he was in the construction industries in cape town as an as an unskilled welcome we as i said were brought up by the by my mother we looked after the few animals that we possessed until you see the few acres that the family had we had to walk to school probably you know 10 kilometers a day i only got a pair of shoes when i was a secondary school student it was a very difficult life and basically that was the life in the whole area i mean i’m referring to coffinville where i was born then i started by being a devout catholic i was an altar boy at one time i contemplated being a priest but my father couldn’t allow this when i went to forte this university in the eastern cape i met a number of comrades there were interested in political discussions we formed a cell there for political discussions for the first time we had access to books who had never seen before like the communist manifesto and general at that time a communist party leaders were producing some radical newspapers like new age edited by mr brian bunting and this began to be you know newsletters and newspapers which were passionately discussed and debated by the students so from there i was approached by comrade governor beggy to join an underground cell of the communist party i don’t know what influenced him in selecting me and we saw ourselves now be beginning to be a set of four comrades discussing specifically you know marxist literature works by emily benz well max’s review works by palm dad and other publications and we were of course brought up in the tradition of saying it is the duty of communists not only to preach you know socialism but also to strengthen the african national congress the anc being seen as the vehicle for bringing about national liberation in our country so it was said it was unacceptable that a member of the communist party should not be equally you know active in the african national congress no struggles how much dedication did it take to join the party at that time well being young there was something romantic about belonging to a cell of the south african communist party a party which probably was most hated by the ruling class by the apartheid rulers and we were fascinated by the fact that every now and again leaders of the nationalist party the white opposition would cast the pattern we felt that there was something basically good about something which was hated by the people we hated people who were oppressing us people were harassing us almost every day especially when our university had been taken over by the government in 1959 you know there was a moot of bitterness and we all became embittered and we moved slowly and slowly to the left if you like and we became committed members of the south african communist party we distribute these leaflets would attend the meetings in 1963 i attended the underground party congress which was held in johannesburg i think by 1963 i had become a convinced communist a committed communist and i was ready to do anything that the party wanted me to do just checking how much tape that’s left um and that actually meant going abroad and taking a very leading part in um contour was his way um some of your actions have become controversial particularly angola i was reading about moise twala’s remarks in the citizen just yesterday with hindsight do you regret the methods that we use to clamp down on should we say is that should the word be dissonance within um kanto well even with hindsight i don’t regret the actions taken because twala is less than frank the mutineers took over a camp of the african national congress and killed several officers of whom condo is israel he doesn’t tell the world that force was used to take over a camp of an organization twala like me at that time was under oath to be a loyal member from condorces he had voluntarily joined in condorces and i’m not debating here whether the grievances were justified or not justified in fact even then i said some of the grievances were justified the complaints were justified but i said in a movement there are channels peaceful channels where soldiers and members of the movement can raise their grievances but when people begin to pick up weapons they don’t leave us with an alternative except to come and defend the organization no recapture the camp which has been illegally captured by the digitals twala was a leading member of that group he was he belonged to the community of ten in other words he had you know started a rebellion against the anc and you know people who see will know the you know the rules or regulation of an army whether gorilla army or a regular army they know that mutiny is suppressed and in this case this mutiny was just not a peaceful one where people just say we have taken over and killed and occupied and therefore as a soldier as an officer i was under oath to lead a detachment off from condorcet to recapture the camp and to arrest the dissidents but twala is not speaking the truth when he begins now to associate me with the arrest and what he alleges to be torturing because it had nothing to do with me it when we defeated them the whole the whole task the whole problem was taken over by the security department of the african national congress what he alleges was a sustained campaign of imprisonment beatings and torture against him and others you see unfortunately twala you know begins again to degenerate into the known anti-communism crusade it is through the communists in the security department in bogota but it is wrong we see to say it was dominated by communists there were a few communists there it’s very difficult for me to say how many communists were there but again the party was never asked to provide communist party members to serve in the security it has always been the discussion and the decision of the security department to select and appoint people to serve in the security department when they were in the security department i can assure you they were not accountable to the party they were accountable to their bosses to their commanders in the security department and i think therefore a line must be drawn between communists who are serving in the various departments of the anc and communities who are in the party there are communists in the various departments of the union presently they are accountable to the discipline of the african national congress they don’t come to this office and ask me what should i do in that department and therefore if there were any beatings tortures and malt treatment they should not be asked be ascribed to the communist party but should be ascribed to those who are responsible and i want to tell you something that twala doesn’t know because twala had never attended meetings of the national executive committee if in the nec of the anc there was an individual who championed the rights of the detainees and the and the prisoners it was people like myself josh lover some of us became unpopular within nec structures because we were calling for the release of people like juana tuala was released and sent to tanzania because we had argued fierce fiercely for a position of releasing people who have been detained for a long time without trying we said this was a travesty of justice and twala has decided he has decided to ignore that in an attempt to say to attack the south african communist party uh i’m not saying there were no individual communists were implicated but i want to say that the party championed the release and the immediate trial of the people we had been arrested we said we are against detention without trial we can’t call upon the south african government to release political printed prisoners and detainees and practice the same thing we said we cannot be seen to to to to to to to to people to be you know following the morality of the enemy as people see what we are fighting for a democratic order for social justice this is the time to to to lay the foundation for that democracy and that was the our argument of course this debate was an internal debate it was taking part within the anc and the national executive committee but if one day the agency publishes the meetings i mean the minutes rather of those meetings it will be shown that some communists came out openly against maltreatment against tortures we were very vocal for instance against were quite vocal against the treatment of people like tamizulu one of the commanders or from controversies that was arrested by the security department and other cases of what we saw as a violation of the rights of the individual angler in 84 was perhaps the start of the legend of chris harney because i mean there’s steven elliott’s account in his book there was a speech which you apparently made to the mutineers in the early stages of of the discontent which doubts down the flames which which some people described as a magnificent piece of oratory i mean did you feel yourself that you were becoming um someone who was venerated perhaps within the movement well i wouldn’t say venerated but i would say that i belong to the generation of the 60s the young people were taken out for military training the first group in big numbers to be taken to countries like the soviet union on coming back a year or two years afterwards i was deployed deployed in rhodesia i fought in rhodesia and ended up in prison in botswana i was paroled and sent back to zambia later i was given another task to to go back to south africa illegally to build underground structures in 74 75. later also ended up in the soto participating in the building clandestine of those structures and i participated in the building above from conversation through systematic recruiting from a number of areas inside the country so that put me in touch with the young generation which joined the anc you know the the the the youngsters of the 70s and the 80s and therefore i was quite familiar with many of them and later on i have i had shared a lot of experience and collaboration with many of them so when the mutiny took place i was not in angola but i was called by the leadership to go and attend that problem precisely because they just appointed me to become army comissa and generally since i left the country in 1963 i had done nothing else except being in the ranks of from i was quite knowledgeable about the some of the problems of our army and also i knew people quite a number of people and when we faced this problem i think the movement felt that probably i would have a better understanding and i would be in a position to solve some of the problems that mutiny was also a setback for our movement there’s nothing to be proud about it it will go down in history as one of the episodes which in a way for some time left an ugly scar nobody can derive joy from fellow oppressed south africans fighting one another killing one another it would have been better if it was solved peacefully and the speech i made in angola in rwanda was an appeal a passionate appeal to the comrades to find other ways of solving their problems and i’m happy and i would feel that it contributed to a situation where many like many lives were saved i think generally only two comrades were killed and if i had not appealed to them i think more people would have been killed i saw them for the speech as a contribution towards a better understanding i tried to be balanced in my speech i accepted that there were many wrongs that had been done there were wrong methods of punishing people there was no forum created where people could express their views there was no sensitivity on the part of commanders and leaders including members of the national executive committee to the complaints of comrades who spent many years in the camps in the bushes and there was also a call for a conference so that leaders could be elected so that the movement could be more democratized and i think when we examine that mutiny we should not forget that some of the issues raised deserved to be to be attended and that was my attitude i know that i don’t i mean not everybody in the leadership agrees with this sort of approach but that was my approach still my approach when i came back to this country two years later i gave an interview to a radical journal called work in progress where problem was the first leader of the anc to acknowledge that there had been torture there had been ill treatment of comrades in the camps and that now what is important is for us to acknowledge so that we don’t repeat those mistakes in in in future when we build a democratic south africa when you were working from konto how many times how often did you come clandestinely into south africa well in 1970 in 1967 i went into zimbabwe i fought then when i ended up in botswana i didn’t read south africa in 1974 i came back into the country via botswana to build the organization later i moved to buduli soto from the suit i made a number of forays into this country meeting complex clandestinely building underground cells preparing routes you know to send comrades back and also to bring in recruits very soon to mozambique and angola in the 80s i use also to go to get into switzerland to botswana cross the borders uh doing some reconnaissance together with comrades who are based there it’s very difficult to keep the count of the numbers of the number of times i’d that i’d been into this country but certainly i’d had made a number of plans and visits into south africa were you at any stage close to being captured i would say yes and no when i went into south africa in 1974 and then later on i proceeded to go to lesotho i did not know my my way into the soto so it was at night and i thought the best thing is to go to a police station in a small town near the border called webinar and with a straight face i said to the officer and you did say i want to move to lesotho and which is the route how can i get out of town and he he was more than willing to help me i’m not saying i was closer to arrest but because he didn’t know that i was chris annie but earlier again when i went in from botswana in 1974 i i came to a small town near the border called zillast and again i i approached the police to to inquire about the train scheduled at what time the train going to join us back would come to the station and he was very cooperative was more than helpful um closer to our rest i think in switzerland probably in 86 87 a fellow who’s now a leading member of the ascari the fellows who attend was actually handling my my traveling around swaziland we went we drove together to the border i’m not quite sure if at that time he was working with the police or not but i was i moved around that according to southern climates using a false document because i was consulting with our structures there i come in to take to them the tasks from military headquarters from what you saw in your visits back to south africa how well did the party’s underground structure inside south africa hold up during those terribly difficult years the party the party’s underground structures when i came in in the 70s early 70s were very weak pathetically weak were really to start from the beginning this applied not only to the party but it affected the ants as well but because what a good collective we began now to establish you know party cells throughout most of the cape natal and the free state and in no time i think after six months we have begun now to establish and the natural infrastructures and after a year i would begin about belief that were fairly consolidated the unbanning in february 1990 to many people the unbanning of the sacp as well as the anc at the same time came as a bit of a surprise can you remember your own emotions when you heard i mean i don’t know whether you were listening to the clerk but when you heard that your party was going to be able to operate legally for the first time for 40 years well my own emotions very difficult to describe the step i declare caught us by surprise it was unbelievable that those who had crusaded against the ancient party for so many years we had been so harsh we had driven our opportunity to what given of driven our party underground to exile we had arrested some of our party leaders and sentenced them to life imprisonment were treated one of the most eminent members of this party coming from the africana community brown fisher in a very harsh way now they come around to say we were going to be a legal party it was understandable why they had banned the anc i think they accepted the fact that they’d failed to crush it they’d use every method to destroy the anc by the anc continue to exist can continue to grow from strength to strength it was begun beginning to be the guide of our struggle the majority of the oppressed people including people who are not members generally supported the african national congress but what about the communist party i think declared committed a mistake he thought with the collapse of communism in the soviet union in eastern europe the party was going to follow the same way and would go into the dustbin of history that was his basic mistake and miscalculation he’s regretting it today that’s why he indulges in a chairing tyrant against us from time to time we have proved him wrong he forgot to know the historic you know record of this party his contribution to the struggle within the anc the alliance his contribution to the building of the underground is contribution to the theoretical you know guidelines of the national liberation movement and also the fact that the party produced outstanding leaders of the you know the broad struggle slovo yusuf dadu brahm fisher moses my peter quarter na jb max and he forgot that you see that participation as well as that contribution by these communists has left an indelible mark in the minds of the oppressed and exploited in this country when we came back we’re hailed as heroes when we launched our party legally after as you have correctly pointed out after more than 40 years of persecution thousands flocked to the fn to the fnp stadium more than 60 000 and i think that reality must have stuck at the nationalist party the red flag began now to flatter throughout the country in the big and small terms as well as in the villages no speaker at rallies of the anc would say viva anc without saying viva south african communist party people saw what they had achieved the the legalization as a joint contribution by the communist party as well as by the anc and from then there was not stopping us we were very visible as communists in the unfolding struggles in this country in the mass struggles and the matches and the demonstrations and we have become probably the first growing party in the world we are you know hailed and supported by the workers in this country there’s not a single workers rally trade you know rally where the party is not invited last week on sunday i was at a mining town small money down called cottonville there was a rally that attended by 10 000 miners for me it was touching to see those red flags you know raised by ordinary miners from the different mining terms of the western transform one of the most conservative place you can find in this country and i said to myself their foot wherever he is must be shaking with concern to see this party they wanted to destroy completely literally literally rising from the ashes to become an important element in the struggle for democracy and freedom in this country i can detect in what you’re saying a tremendous pride in your party and a pride in communism but is there also too much nostalgia there you said there was something romantic about becoming a communist but is communist is the communist party looking back on its past achievements and triumphs more than looking forward to what it can offer to tomorrow south africa by looking back into our history examining our history acknowledging our mistakes but at the same time proud of what we have contributed as communists to the struggle for democracy and non-racialism in this country where the first party to say this country belongs to all black and white we took the politics of non-racialism to the anc and broadened the nationalism of the nc from the narrow nationalism of the 1912 up to 1930 period into an all-embracing nationalism if you like democratic nationalism which defined a place for everybody in this country black and white we certainly looked look to those beginnings with a lot of pride but we’re not just nostalgic we’re looking into the future what future do we want for this country first of all the struggle for socialism is basically a struggle for democracy even bourgeois democracy puja democracy has always been embraced by marxists as an improvement on autocracy as well as feudalism we must remember that before the great october revolution the soviet communists were calling for the triumphant victory of the bourgeois democratic revolution because the democratic revolution would put aside the relics of zarya’s autocracy of feudalism and would open up a way for a movement forward to socialism equally in this country the struggle for real democracy for non-racialism is a struggle for socialism it lays the basis for a movement forward for the people of south africa for the first time to have the vote and begin to shape their own lives but we say that political victories is must be linked to immediate steps to reorganize the economy of our country to empower the workers and we see that period also as a building block towards socialism towards the situation where the means of production in this country would be in public hands not in bureaucratic elite cells as it happened in the soviet union it would certainly be in the hands of the workers the workers would have a central role we don’t believe that nationalization is not only done by a socialist or communist country nationalization is sometimes enacted by dictatorship mabuto panda national they nationalize in these countries but they are not nationalizing in the interests of the workers they are nationalizing in the interests of the bureaucrats of their friends of the elite and we say in our country nationalization must be done in such a way that it involves the very people who are involved in the production processes but we’re also saying that when we discuss nationalization we should not wear ideological spectacles like in the soviet union you don’t nationalize if you if nationalization is going to lead to stagnation in the economy we must accept that there’s going to be joy i mean there’s going to be partnership control or partnership ownership cooperative ownership there’s also going to be private ownership but we say even with private ownership there must be guidelines we cannot allow for the old ladies affair where people with wealth would decide and prescribe to the rest of society as they’ve done in this country in terms of big business in terms of the minds the minds in this kind of power to themselves that’s why they have not done anything for their workers that’s why their workers still stay in compounds that’s why they’ve got security forces within minds to deal with any rebellion that’s why in some ways the national union of mine workers even today is not allowed to organize openly they’ve got to organize underground they’re still a big struggle to accept you know the right of a worker to to belong to a trade union of his own choice there’s going there’s still a badly here to fight against oligarchic tendencies on the part of big business and we see ourselves as communists together with the trade unions and in anc government participating in that struggle but again you see we want also to to learn a lesson from the soviet union and that lesson is to fight passionately against one party rule we don’t think democracy should only be defended by those who are in parliament in government we think the person at grassroots must have a say we must broaden democracy we must allow for democratic organs of civil society the civic organizations the students the teachers the professional medium businesses doing get involved in organizations so that society should be a watchdog against any you know deterioration in terms of democratic role and therefore that’s why i was saying yes we’re marching today against the apartheid government but even in future we must march whenever there are injustices committed against residents in the townships in the suburbs injustice is committed against our environment sort of ecological problems there must be a culture of matches because matches involve people and parliament involves a small tiny microscopic minority of the population think that’s covered all the ground chris honey thank you very much indeed you’re welcome